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NME
Jun 1, 2007 13:37:13 GMT
Post by raspberry on Jun 1, 2007 13:37:13 GMT
I love that the NME has done this - Does that make me a feminist?
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NME
Jun 1, 2007 15:00:13 GMT
Post by pauliepoos on Jun 1, 2007 15:00:13 GMT
"Music star takes off clothes for self promotion exercise".
How thorougly rock and roll.
I've said it before, but if she wasn't obese would anyone really care?
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Tacye Marley
Su Pollard
O Hai. I iz Homofobe nao.
Posts: 404
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NME
Jun 1, 2007 16:12:12 GMT
Post by Tacye Marley on Jun 1, 2007 16:12:12 GMT
I am a feminist and I don't like it.
And no, no one who care. I think there would be a totally different reaction if it was Kate Jackson or Karen O naked on the front cover. And a different on still if it was me (I'm not fat, just a bit chubby and average sized).
But Beth Ditto annoys me anyway.
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NME
Jun 1, 2007 17:07:01 GMT
Post by raspberry on Jun 1, 2007 17:07:01 GMT
This comes a good few months after she topped their 'cool list' and took part in a hyped 'coolest women in rock' photo shoot. The girls were promised the cover but barely featured as most of the space was was dedicated to Muse.
This cover makes for a neat apology.
I don't think she is obese, and I don't think her size makes people care about her. I think her size adds to the spectacle that is Beth Ditto of The Gossip: her performances, the things she says, and the quality of her voice make people care about her (or not).
If it were any other indie-rock girl then the reaction would be immeasurably different depending on what they have to say for themselves and their reasons for stripping. With Beth this cover makes sense due to her well voiced opinions and noitoriety for stripping at gigs.
It is really only controversial to those who allow themselves to be scandalised by women being able to behave and look however they want.
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NME
Jun 1, 2007 17:36:01 GMT
Post by pauliepoos on Jun 1, 2007 17:36:01 GMT
With Beth this cover makes sense due to her well voiced opinions and noitoriety for stripping at gigs. It is really only controversial to those who allow themselves to be scandalised by women being able to behave and look however they want. You see this is the problem I have with Beth Ditto and her "well voiced opinions". Slagging off celebrities for the way they look isn't new. 10 years ago people were slagging off the Spice Girls because of the way they looked. Geri and Melanie C bore the brunt of it and along with Victoria they've talked about their eating disorders and body image problems. Fast foward to ten years later and Victoria is now the easiest target around for people who want to put someone down on their appearance. Everyone with an arsehole has something to say about how thin horribly THIN and UGLY and GAUNT and ILL she is and they say it often. Thank heavens then for Beth Ditto, the champion of women who feel pressured to look a certain way and hurrah to Beth for sticking up for them. But wait! She doesn't stick up for all women. She hates Victoria and mocks her appearance just like the rest of the media. "Posh Spice is an absolute joke. In the '90s she did all that Girl Power shit, then she realised being thin got her attention.”
“She's just a total tool. She thought: 'This is how women get attention, be thin and have opinions only about clothes and men.' That's bullshit. And if I met her I would tell her." Beth Ditto, feminist icon, slagging off someone with an eating disorder that she's admittedly never met. I'm so glad there are people like her telling us it's ok to look and dress the way we want.
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NME
Jun 1, 2007 18:16:50 GMT
Post by Cherubic on Jun 1, 2007 18:16:50 GMT
I don't think she mocks Victoria Beckham's appearance so much as her motivations and priorities, which is fair enough really. VB's appearance isn't tragic because it is entirely self inflicted. She starves herself for money. She doesn't have an eating disorder, she has a personality disorder.
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NME
Jun 1, 2007 18:34:48 GMT
Post by SweatShop on Jun 1, 2007 18:34:48 GMT
The depressing thing about the "Beth Ditto versus the skinnies" debate is that no-one seems to mention that there is a happy medium.
It's perfectly acceptable to be in the middle, between a size 4 and a size 22. Both of which are extremes and shouldn't be shown as the only ways.
As for that picture, so much for feminism. That photo has been airbrushed to buggery!
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NME
Jun 1, 2007 21:11:28 GMT
Post by Cherubic on Jun 1, 2007 21:11:28 GMT
Well yeah I did think that.
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NME
Jun 1, 2007 21:59:00 GMT
Post by xenomaniac on Jun 1, 2007 21:59:00 GMT
She won't be so cool with type 2 diabetes and heart disease.
Incidentally, what has this got to do with feminism? Do you admire her for for taking her clothes off?
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NME
Jun 1, 2007 23:27:50 GMT
Post by SweatShop on Jun 1, 2007 23:27:50 GMT
Well, I don't personally admire her but I think the reason people do is because she doesn't try to make herself look nice to attract other people... I was going to say the opposite sex but she is a lesbian.
She goes against the fact that women have to stay a good weight and wear pretty clothes and everything.
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NME
Jun 2, 2007 1:33:47 GMT
Post by [james] on Jun 2, 2007 1:33:47 GMT
So she's rebelling against being attractive? In the least fatist way possible, I think if you don't have a certain type of body you shouldn't do covers like that. She might think she's making a radical statement but she's just making a show of herself. There's a difference between being happy with their appearance and shoving it in people's faces.
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NME
Jun 2, 2007 12:04:33 GMT
Post by raspberry on Jun 2, 2007 12:04:33 GMT
"I hope that bodies can just be bodies and there's not any kind of fascism involved."I don't think Beth Ditto is 'against' thin people. On the issue of appearances her stance seems to be that it is fine to be however you are as long you are comfortable with it. She isn't all that big but thanks to to the likes of Posh we are conditioned to see her as being bigger. I love the image and the statement - a strong, confident and successful woman posing nude because she can. I relish the idea that the NME felt confident enough to put a naked fat American lesbian on their cover. Ditto and the NME have changed what it means to be a cover star and produced imagery that is in oppostion to popular notions of female beauty. For these reasons I think this cover has something to do with feminism. I'm not too fussed that the pics have been airbrushed and photoshopped, show me a magazine cover from the last 10 years that hasn't.
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NME
Jun 2, 2007 12:23:44 GMT
Post by raspberry on Jun 2, 2007 12:23:44 GMT
So she's rebelling against being attractive? In the least fatist way possible, I think if you don't have a certain type of body you shouldn't do covers like that. She might think she's making a radical statement but she's just making a show of herself. There's a difference between being happy with their appearance and shoving it in people's faces. I don't think she's rebelling against being attractive. I'm sure she feels attractive enough without looking for approval from as many people as possible. Yes, she's fat, but why shouldn't she do covers like that? Should she wait until she slims down to acheive 'a certain type of body' that you deem aceptable? I much prefer that she shows the world her bolshy confidence as well as her fat gay ass. Vive la difference, as they say. I don't think that this is in any way a radical statement. If it seems to be it is only because of how conservative the omnipresence of skinny women on other magazine titles are. If there is a difference between someone being happy with their appearance and shoving it in people's faces people like Jordan, Victoria Beckham and Christina Aguleria have crossed that line with far more unpleasentess than Beth.
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Tacye Marley
Su Pollard
O Hai. I iz Homofobe nao.
Posts: 404
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NME
Jun 2, 2007 12:36:47 GMT
Post by Tacye Marley on Jun 2, 2007 12:36:47 GMT
The obsession with size zero is such a media invention though. Yes I'm not always happy being a size 12/14 but I don't want to be size 4, and I certainly don't care enough to diet. I think a lot of women have the sense to know that it's an unattainable ideal and just move on from it. There are certain celebrities that don't set a good example- like Victoria Beckham- but I'm sceptical about how much influence they have.
I think anyone who stands up and says be who you are, and don't give a shit about what other people say about you is probably a good role model. I just find Beth Ditto extremely annoying. I agree with what Scissor Sister/Margeret says about there being no happy medium. I think fat and thin are relative descriptions but overweight and underweight are medical facts, they're both dangerous and neither should be held up as an ideal.
As for the feminism thing, I think that women won't be fully emancipated until they emancipate themselves. Which yes has a lot to do with the pressure women put themselves under to be thin or whatever but a massive part of it is the way women slag each other off. It's not a sign of being empowered, it's a sign insecurity. And it shouldn't be more acceptable for Beth Ditto to say 'such and such is so skinny, it's terrible' than for some skinny such and such to say 'Beth Ditto is so fat'.
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NME
Jun 2, 2007 17:17:28 GMT
Post by Nurse Dunkley on Jun 2, 2007 17:17:28 GMT
There are certain celebrities that don't set a good example- like Victoria Beckham- but I'm sceptical about how much influence they have. This isn't really her fault though. "At then end of day" (and at any other time, really), Victoria Beckham is an actual person with the same insecurities and feelings that many of us have. She's thin for the same reasons. I doubt she's skinny to set examples, instead she feels it makes her look good and I don't like people such as Beth laying into her about. Also, I don't think I've ever heard Posh mouthing off about anybody, which makes it even more unfair. EDIT: I'd forgetten that Paul had already pretty muched voiced these opinions, but the more Spice Support the better.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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NME
Jun 3, 2007 16:56:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 16:56:06 GMT
In the least fatist way possible, I think if you don't have a certain type of body you shouldn't do covers like that. She might think she's making a radical statement but she's just making a show of herself. There's a difference between being happy with their appearance and shoving it in people's faces. Sorry to wade into this debate so very late in the day, but hey ho... I am a feminist, absolutely. (There isn't one type of feminism anyway - there are multiple feminisms. There are feminists who hate poledancing and there are feminists who see it as empowering.) You say "she might think she's instigating debate", but as this thread proves, she is. She's not answering questions, she's just trying to shake up the ingrained culture of "thin is beautiful". There was a letter in the NME a few weeks ago where someone wrote in saying all she talks about is how she's a fat lesbian. Well, good for her. Beth Ditto needs to prove she's "happy with her appearance" and "shove it in people's faces" because there are people out there being told by the press and other kids in the playground that they are less worthy in some way because they're fat or because they're gay. They need to know that being thin and straight isn't the only option, and you might not like Beth Ditto or her music but at least she's out there proving there are other options. You can be happy with yourself without conforming to a frankly unhealthy (mentally and physically) image of physical/mental/sexual acceptance. I don't know if this idea was Beth Ditto's or the NME's, but I'm just glad it's happened. I'm glad there's a large naked woman in WHSmith's looking fucking feirce, who's hilarious in interviews and says intelligent things. People don't agree with them, fine. Some people think women should be thin and beautiful and silent. Beth Ditto is beautiful because she isn't thin and because she isn't silent. Quite frankly, music would be SERIOUSLY FUCKING BORING without her. Nobody would be having this debate. I wouldn't be overreacting and writing in capitals. I am utterly sick of 'Standing in the Way of Control', sadly, but it has been so long since anyone in the charts made me think the way she has, has made me feel like it is okay to be myself even though I don't look like the front of Attitude or Men's Health, and has made me pleased to operate the way I do.
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boxedjoy
Su Pollard
Don't you wish your snack was as tempting as this?
Posts: 369
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NME
Jun 4, 2007 11:54:02 GMT
Post by boxedjoy on Jun 4, 2007 11:54:02 GMT
I'm fed up with her. She's such a try-hard. "Look at me! Controversy!" For someone who does have something to say, she sure does have a way of distracting audiences from it. Who cares that SITWOC is about gay marriage when the big obese lady is getting out her stomach?
Besides, this country has an obesity problem. For every 1% of teenage girls with anorexia, there are 20% of children who are "overweight". I would rather my children weren't being told that such an unhealthy figure is acceptable.
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fused
Su Pollard
Posts: 405
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NME
Jun 4, 2007 13:00:22 GMT
Post by fused on Jun 4, 2007 13:00:22 GMT
I quite like Beth Ditto in a strange way. She is what she is and doesn't apologise for it. She has had a lot of bad comments directed at her because of her weight and maybe "throwing it in people's faces" is a defiant answer to that.
On the other hand, posing naked on a magazine cover is just a publicity stunt whoever does it, I don't think that The Gossip are anything out of the ordinary, even though I do like a lot of their songs and I don't think she's saying anything particularly controversial. Victoria Beckham is such an easy target, and talking about her just gives her yet more publicity for doing absolutely nothing.
I'm also sceptical many people are really influenced by the weight of celebrities, whether they are too fat or too thin. People with eating disorders develop them because of psychological problems rather than because they want to look like someone famous.
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NME
Jun 5, 2007 11:58:56 GMT
Post by 1stpoofinspace on Jun 5, 2007 11:58:56 GMT
Hmm, I'm not sure this works really. A woman taking her clothes off on a magazine cover to validate herself - not sure it's particularly feminist.
Are the NME trying to be controversial? If so, they're declaring that overweight lesbians are freaks to be gawped at and patronised. Brave fat lady! On the other hand, if the intention is to normalise (someone, please shoot me for using that word) heavier women, then surely what goes for thin women goes for fat women, which puts the NME on the same level as Zoo (though why anyone thinks the NME is a bastion of progressive thought is beyond me).
Besides, why are they bothering with this pseudo-feminist codswallop? Shouldn't they be busy alerting us to the new music craze sweeping the country?!? They call it 'inn-dee'.
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NME
Jun 6, 2007 0:02:02 GMT
Post by somethingbiblical on Jun 6, 2007 0:02:02 GMT
I hate the idea that someone would have the feminist moral high ground because they're fat or have hairy armpits. I don't think feminism is about not 'conforming' - everything people do is conforming to one idea or another, it just might not be the most popular of all ideas - I think it's about feeling that as a woman you should be able to act, dress, be how you want and not be judged or treated as lesser for it. So if you want to plaster your face in make up, go ahead and do it, as long as you're happy, and if you want to wear no make up, the same goes.
I think Christina Aguilera makes a far better 'feminist icon' than Beth Ditto does.
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NME
Jun 6, 2007 23:35:10 GMT
Post by Cherubic on Jun 6, 2007 23:35:10 GMT
everything people do is conforming to one idea or another, it just might not be the most popular of all ideas Sorry but that statement is such a load of shit. Because most people conform to something at some point, and most people who actively don't conform to a certain something tend to be conforming to something else (like teenage goths rejecting the system for wearing black) DOESN'T mean that everything we do is the product of conformity. We have minds and some of us sometimes choose to use them.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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NME
Jun 7, 2007 11:15:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2007 11:15:22 GMT
Hmm, I'm not sure this works really. A woman taking her clothes off on a magazine cover to validate herself - not sure it's particularly feminist. Well, yes and no. She's doing it to validate herself, as you say. There are feminists out there who'd say that it subjects the female form to the male gaze and therefore isn't empowering; there are feminists who'd point out that she's doing it because she wants to prove a point and it therefore acts as a feminist stance. When Kathleen Hanna first started out in Bikini Kill, she used to come onstage wearing a bra, and with 'WHORE' written across her stomach. She wasn't saying she was one, she was mocking the idea that any woman who is proud of her body, who is pleased with it and enjoys looking sexually attractive (to either sex, remember) is instantly judged because of the sex aspect. Here, Beth Ditto's following on from that concept. There's no one feminism, it's not an in-or-out club. Charlotte Perkins Gilman always insisted she was a "humanist" rather than a feminist because she simply wanted equal rights. There are millions of angles on it. Essentially, if you don't want to be raped every day without being able to press charges, if you like having the ability to choose your own job and when to have children, if you like it when people listen when you speak... you're a feminist.
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NME
Jun 7, 2007 11:54:47 GMT
Post by QuincyMD on Jun 7, 2007 11:54:47 GMT
...her music is still forgettable no matter how many naked covers she is on.
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NME
Jun 7, 2007 11:55:05 GMT
Post by klee on Jun 7, 2007 11:55:05 GMT
The feminist debate is interesting, but ultimately a side-issue.
She's not getting all this exposure because she's a feminist. She's getting it because, like it or not, putting a 'larger' lady on the front of a magazine with a falling circulation is controversial and a guarantee of getting exposure for it.
Beth, sadly, seems to be falling for the Louise Wener (remember her?) delusion that because editors come knocking they must respect her. They don't, they just think she's good copy. Sooner or later they'll get bored with it, as most of us have with Standing In The Way Of Control and go back to lauding the boys over the girls.
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NME
Jun 7, 2007 23:16:33 GMT
Post by somethingbiblical on Jun 7, 2007 23:16:33 GMT
everything people do is conforming to one idea or another, it just might not be the most popular of all ideas Sorry but that statement is such a load of shit. Because most people conform to something at some point, and most people who actively don't conform to a certain something tend to be conforming to something else (like teenage goths rejecting the system for wearing black) DOESN'T mean that everything we do is the product of conformity. We have minds and some of us sometimes choose to use them. I don't think conforming is necessarily a bad thing, it's a circumstantial thing whether it's good or bad, but everyone does inescabably conform to their respective social groups. And people who say they don't are conforming to the idea that it's cool to say that they don't conform 'Conforming' is a natural human instinct - we are social, moral animals and therefore we conform to (often different, yet interweaving) moral and social codes. Anyway, sidetracked, why would NME put Beth Ditto naked on the cover? They wouldn't put other naked people on the cover. They should leave the nakedness to FHM and the like.
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