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NME
Jun 8, 2007 9:16:20 GMT
Post by Cherubic on Jun 8, 2007 9:16:20 GMT
I don't think conforming is necessarily a bad thing, it's a circumstantial thing whether it's good or bad, but everyone does inescabably conform to their respective social groups. And people who say they don't are conforming to the idea that it's cool to say that they don't conform 'Conforming' is a natural human instinct - we are social, moral animals and therefore we conform to (often different, yet interweaving) moral and social codes. No they don't. What was Giordano Bruno conforming to when he got burned by the inquisition? Or Oscar Schindler? Or Jean D'Arc? I know about conformity, I've got the BSc, I've bought the Schiff, Asch and Zimbardo T-shirts and I know that just because we are evolutionarily hardwired to conform that doesn't mean that everyone does all the time. Bringing it back to Beth Ditto, is she fat because she wants to belong to a fat group, or because she doesn't mind being overweight? Does she make vaguely political statements because that's what singers do or because she has something she wants to say? I think you're doing her a disservice if you think she isn't moivated by her own thoughts and experinces ratherthan some kind of insidious rock star group think. Sometimes people just do what they think is right, and to presume that everything we say and so is just a spasm of reflexive psychological fear is at best ignorant and at worst offensive to all those who have stood against the social pressures placed upon them and sacrificed something to make a difference in this world. Get over the cynicism, it's a rich and beautiful world out there. Finally I'm of the opinion that the NME could be infinitely improved by featuring more hot indie flesh. Although there would obviously have to be an X list of people we never want to see.
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NME
Jun 8, 2007 13:29:23 GMT
Post by somethingbiblical on Jun 8, 2007 13:29:23 GMT
Hey, I'm not being a cynic! Didn't I just say I didn't think it was necessarily a bad thing? I'm not saying that every single thing you do is because other people you like do it. I'm saying that our ideas of morals and what is socially acceptable is based on believing a certain set of ideas which we believe based on the experiences we have from the people we meet. If all you ever hear your whole life from everyone you ever meet is, I dunno, "gay people are evil", then that's what you're always going to believe - if you then meet someone who says different, you might question your previous beliefs because you've been opened up to a new idea. You're never going to be able to come to the conclusion that actually, gay people aren't evil, unless you're able to see hear ideas that are slightly or massively different - the idea that "gay people aren't evil" couldn't spring into your mind if you were kept in a locked room and only ever constantly fed the ideas of people who believed that too. I think you're reading too much into what I said - I was talking about the linguistics of the word 'conform', really, not saying that we never make any choices. I was saying we make the choice which belief system to conform to, actually, but that nevertheless it's conforming to what idea you (and others that you like, admire, etc) believe.
So please don't call me ignorant for having a different view to you on human nature.
I wasn't saying Beth Ditto never thinks for herself either, actually, if you read what I said again, I was saying she is 'conforming' to the idea that feminists should be lesbians with hairy armpits. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing - my maw 'conforms' to that idea too. I just don't think that that's what feminism is about - as I said, I think it should just be about being able to 'conform' to whatever feels right for you and not be judged for it (i.e. If I want to be make up, I should be able to, and not be judged as a crap feminist for doing so, but equally if I don't want to wear make up I shouldn't be judged as a crap woman). I was actually attacking the use of the word 'conform' as being a bad thing, when in fact everyone does it, but people tend to bandy it about like "oh you're such a conformist, you can't think for yourself".
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NME
Jun 8, 2007 16:16:05 GMT
Post by Cherubic on Jun 8, 2007 16:16:05 GMT
Well psychologically speaking conformity is to follow the behaviour of others either unthinkingly or in spite of your own judgement. This is a very different thing from following examples of behaviour because you believe them to be worthwhile. Being a conformist is bad because it implies you don't think for yourself, or that you are too afraid to express what you do think.
I think it's really just a question of how we are defining conformity really. Mine is right though.
And sorry if I caused offense. I have this habit of typing from an unjustified standpoint of vast intellectual superiority.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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NME
Jun 9, 2007 0:07:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2007 0:07:09 GMT
Beth, sadly, seems to be falling for the Louise Wener (remember her?) delusion that because editors come knocking they must respect her. They don't, they just think she's good copy. Sooner or later they'll get bored with it, as most of us have with Standing In The Way Of Control and go back to lauding the boys over the girls. It will be an incredibly shame if that does happen, of course, because one of the things this society desperately needs is a few more people doing the same thing as Beth Ditto - pushing self-acceptance whatever you look like, whatever your sexuality. When I was coming out, if there had been just a few people like her who told me it was okay to be myself, it would have been an altogether more painless, happy experience. And god knows we need more women in pop, especially ones who say interesting things. You may be tired of Beth Ditto - I mean, I'm tired of talking about her and I actually like her - but how many other female figures in mainstream music are seen as actually thinking and speaking for themselves? The press tends to paint them as puppets. And that attitude is infinitely more tiresome than she is.
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NME
Jun 10, 2007 11:05:16 GMT
Post by [james] on Jun 10, 2007 11:05:16 GMT
I'd probably like Beth Ditto if she didn't try and be a rebel while still promoting a rubbish lesbian stereotype. Not all lesbians are fat, hairy and slightly scary, Beth. (I know plenty who are slim, smooth and non-threatening!)
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Tacye Marley
Su Pollard
O Hai. I iz Homofobe nao.
Posts: 404
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NME
Jun 10, 2007 13:43:30 GMT
Post by Tacye Marley on Jun 10, 2007 13:43:30 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more women in the music industry. Earlier this year I was standing outside a classroom and I watched as a boy from my seminar group asked all the boys if they played an instrument and what sort of music they liked, totally ignoring me. I've had far too many conversations where I've felt like I have to prove that I know my stuff when it comes to music, because there's an unspoken assumption that women only have a superficial instrest in music. I can also think of at least two occaisions where I've listened to men saying, quite seriously, that women can't produce as good music as men do. Quite often they seem to subscribe to this belief that proper rock music should be testosterone drenced proto Oasis shite.
But there are women in the music scene at the moment. The White Stripes, CSS, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, The Long Blondes, Be Your Own Pet, New Young Pony Club, Howling Bells, Giant Drag- none of them are exactly underground bands. There are things i don't like about the way women are seen in bands; nine times out of ten they're the lead singer, and all of the above bands have thin, attractive women fronting them (Except the White Stripes, obviously). It'd be lovely if an all female rock band emerged and were actually taken seriously. But I think we are making progress.
I suppose a huge part of my problem is that I'm angry that Beth Ditto needs to go, 'look at me I'm a woman and I'm not thin and I'm in your world'. She shouldn't have to. Obviously we're not at the point where a band can have an overweight lesbian fronting it and that's not more of an issue than if another mouthy teenage boy. I'd respect her much more if she was just a front woman and let her music speak for itself, but hey, plently of men in rock bands who don't do that either.
I still don't like her slagging other women off. Every gossip rag is having a pop at Victoria Beckham and I feel really sorry for her. Not everyone can be as comfortable in their selves as Beth Ditto, and feminism- any type of feminism- shouldn't be about attacking women who are weaker than you, it should be about changing the structures which weaken them. But I have actually spoken to a few people who've said that they found her naked shot empowering, because you just never see naked women that don't fit the normal asethetic, and anything that gets people thinking about feminism is wonderful. It's much more than The Enemy/ The Twang/ The View/ whatever sweat sodden N*Sync in leather jackets are in todays NME manage.
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NME
Jun 10, 2007 14:43:39 GMT
Post by pauliepoos on Jun 10, 2007 14:43:39 GMT
On a serious note, isn't Nicola Roberts more of a role model to young women than Beth Ditto?
She is constantly ridiculed for being ginger and "the ugly one", yet carries on with a quiet dignity that other gingers or ugly ones would find inspiring and doesn't need to become a tabloid rent a quote to fight her battles - she leaves her best friend to do that for her.
She seemingly eats whatever she wants and has a naturally slim body that she's comfortable with, and doesn't turn it on for the cameras whenever they're around. In fact she hardly ever turns it on at all, which makes her even more rebellious and non conformist than Ditto.
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Smudge
Su Pollard
We should be doing the Hokey Cokey
Posts: 315
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NME
Jun 10, 2007 15:07:37 GMT
Post by Smudge on Jun 10, 2007 15:07:37 GMT
Not wanting to be politically incorrect or anything, but the sight of Beth Ditto with no clothes on makes me want to retch. Give me that coked up bag of bones Miss Moss any day.
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skillex
Su Pollard
World Happiness Dance?
Posts: 258
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NME
Jun 16, 2007 0:37:12 GMT
Post by skillex on Jun 16, 2007 0:37:12 GMT
Finally I'm of the opinion that the NME could be infinitely improved by featuring more hot indie flesh. Brendan Flowers. Tim Wheeler. Damon Albarn. Kele from Bloc Party. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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NME
Jul 25, 2007 15:10:27 GMT
Post by longsnakemoan on Jul 25, 2007 15:10:27 GMT
I flicked through the NME this week in Morrisons whilst I was in the queue whilst myself and thirteen thousand people were trying to get served by the world's slowest till person. Anyway I put it down eventaully because I've never seen so many luminous sixties style nylon smocks in one place. Plus Kate Nash is the new it thing? Fucking hell, I'd hapily rip her tongue out before slicing her head off and presenting them to PJ Harvey as a sacrificial offering with a note saying 'any chance you can hurry the new album up?'
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NME
Jul 25, 2007 16:35:31 GMT
Post by frapperia on Jul 25, 2007 16:35:31 GMT
Thank Christ I'm not the only one who dislikes her! I just don't get it. At all.
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NME
Jul 26, 2007 15:15:57 GMT
Post by longsnakemoan on Jul 26, 2007 15:15:57 GMT
Kate Nash? She's awful and that half talking/half singing drawl she has in that song about her boyfriend qualifies her as a target for assasination. The only place she belongs is on Orange adverts where idiots who can't sing are expected.
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NME
Jul 26, 2007 21:11:46 GMT
Post by SweatShop on Jul 26, 2007 21:11:46 GMT
My friend actually abhors her. Really, really hates her.
And she does a hilarious impression.
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Tacye Marley
Su Pollard
O Hai. I iz Homofobe nao.
Posts: 404
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NME
Jul 28, 2007 20:38:25 GMT
Post by Tacye Marley on Jul 28, 2007 20:38:25 GMT
My friend actually abhors her. Really, really hates her. And she does a hilarious impression. God... Is it Caroline's a victim? Cause I've done some really embarassing impressions of that when I've been drunk, complete with mock southern accent...
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