Woo for Nadia!

[Ezzie]

I remmeber back at the start when I seemed to be the only one who liked her, and now she has won by 74%! She is such an amazing woman, as a fellow annoying-laugh-person, I am totally on her side! Woo for Nadia!

[keaty]

Sorry to sound so sentimental, but I am so happy for her.

[milkmonitor]

I love her so much. She was so overwhelmed because she only went in to see if she could be accepted as a woman without having to tell people about her sex change and she ended up winning. I really really love her, she's brilliant.

[Sean]

I got all emotional! How embarrassing. First when she won and couldn't believe it, then with the crowd, and then when she saw her mom.

In other news, I love Davina again. I love that she didn't even try and hide her contempt for Jason, and that she cried and was so happy for Nadia.

I also realised that Dan is actually prettyfuckingcool. One of the best bits was when he was miming along to Davina's autocue just before the ad break, and she was all, "Dan are you stealing my thunder? You bitch!" Perfect.

Best BB finale ever!

[lovebomb]

The question I ask myself is would she have won if we didn't know?

And if the answer was no then doesn't that make the whole acceptance thing about her a sham and shows that people haven't really accepted her because what they've done is put her on a pedestal due to what she is. It's just the way some people go on as if she proved herself or something to be a person like she needed to prove anything anyway, as if being a nice transsexual is so much more of an acheivement than being a nice 'normal' person. It just smacks of 'The freak has been deemed worthy of our acceptance' (I know not from everyone but a lot of people I've spoke to have that attitude and that's certainly how the media have portrayed it) and that just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

But good on her, she seems nice enough though she wasn't my personal fave (that was Shell) and I hope she does well but if she's looking for acceptance as a woman I fear she ain't gonna get it in the media game she's gonna be inevitably involved in now.

[smellslikesomeghost]

Lovebomb said:

The question I ask myself is would she have won if we didn't know?

And if the answer was no then doesn't that make the whole acceptance thing about her a sham and shows that people haven't really accepted her because what they've done is put her on a pedestal due to what she is. It's just the way some people go on as if she proved herself or something to be a person like she needed to prove anything anyway as if being a nice transsexual is so much more of an acheivement than being a nice 'normal' person. It just smacks of 'The freak has been deemed worthy of our acceptance' (I know not from everyone but a lot of people I've spoke to have that attitude and that's certainly how the media have portrayed it) and that just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

But good on her, she seems nice enough though she wasn't my personal fave (that was Shell) and I hope she does well but if she's looking for acceptance as a woman I fear she ain't gonna get it in the media game she's gonna be inevitably involved in now.

Just to say that I agree with everything you say, except my personal favourites were Victor and Stuart. I don't think Nadia would have won if we just knew her as a woman.

[jamie]

I think that Nadia did seem the deserving winner just by the way that she reacted at winning. I was nearly crying just now watching the final.

I don't think that she will do well money-wise(well not lots of lucrative contracts no-one buying her story etc.) out of this show but it doesn't really seem as if she's been in it for that.

Nadia is tops.

[Ezzie]

The thing is, I didn't really give a crap about the fact the Nadia is a transexual. I liked the fact that she was curvy but she didn't care about people seeing her in her underwear and so on(which to be fair, is made evn braver by the fact that she has a man's figure, but even if she didn't)and I just like dher in general. But yeah, I can see the whole "let's accept the freak!" thing. But she's so lovely!

[milkmonitor]

Lovebomb said:

The question I ask myself is would she have won if we didn't know?

And if the answer was no then doesn't that make the whole acceptance thing about her a sham and shows that people haven't really accepted her because what they've done is put her on a pedestal due to what she is. It's just the way some people go on as if she proved herself or something to be a person like she needed to prove anything anyway, as if being a nice transsexual is so much more of an acheivement than being a nice 'normal' person. It just smacks of 'The freak has been deemed worthy of our acceptance' (I know not from everyone but a lot of people I've spoke to have that attitude and that's certainly how the media have portrayed it) and that just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

But good on her, she seems nice enough though she wasn't my personal fave (that was Shell) and I hope she does well but if she's looking for acceptance as a woman I fear she ain't gonna get it in the media game she's gonna be inevitably involved in now.

Fair enough, but would Brian Dowling have won if he wasn't a rather camp homosexual? Would Kate have won if she wasn't a nice looking girl? All these things are pretty big deciding factors in choosing a winner ('Aww Brian's so cute and gay, and gays are cute, lets vote the gay', 'Woah Kate looks like she'd be wild in bed. Woof!'). At the end of the day, Brian's homosexuality is a part of who he is, just as Nadia's transsexuality is a part of who she is. People voting for Nadia because she's had a sex change aren't any different to people who might have voted Stuart to win because he's good looking, Jason because he's a prick, Jade because she was dim, Nichola because she was weird and so on. There's always something about people that makes them endearing, whether it be looks, sexuality, lifestyle or if they were born the opposite sex. And either way; if Nadia was a complete and utter twunt she wouldn't have won, regardless of what she's done in the past.

[Mimternet]

I think Nadia had every chance of winning even if she wasn't a transexual, who cares even if it did help her win. She deserved to.

I have never felt so happy for someone on TV. She was a very deserving winner of this year's Big Brother. I was crying from the start when the crowd were chanting her name. It was brilliant to watch.

Dan a twat. Shell amazing (the nice/naughty clip compilation was classic). Jason utter idiot.

[moondial]

Ezzie said:

I remmeber back at the start when I seemed to be the only one who liked her,

I technically liked her.

By which I mean I'd have been happy for anyone to win other than Michelle.

[Elly]

The show pretty much ended for me after Stuart was voted out (and I still maintain that his eviction was the best of the entire series), but I was genuinely happy for Nadia to win when I saw how much it meant to her. You'd have needed a pretty hard heart not to be moved by her reaction when she was told she had won.

Compared to the other three that night - Dan and Shell's evictions seemed muted, Jason's just plain uncomfortable, nobody deserved it more than Nadia. No, I don't think she'd have won if she wasn't a transsexual (to be quite honest, her personality was very similar to Marco's, who was voted out fairly early on), but if it goes even a small way towards increasing liberal tolerance in this country, her victory can only be a good thing.

[lovebomb]

Milk said:

Fair enough, but would Brian Dowling have won if he wasn't a rather camp homosexual? Would Kate have won if she wasn't a nice looking girl? All these things are pretty big deciding factors in choosing a winner ('Aww Brian's so cute and gay, and gays are cute, lets vote the gay', 'Woah Kate looks like she'd be wild in bed. Woof!'). At the end of the day, Brian's homosexuality is a part of who he is, just as Nadia's transsexuality is a part of who she is. People voting for Nadia because she's had a sex change aren't any different to people who might have voted Stuart to win because he's good looking, Jason because he's a prick, Jade because she was dim, Nichola because she was weird and so on. There's always something about people that makes them endearing, whether it be looks, sexuality, lifestyle or if they were born the opposite sex. And either way; if Nadia was a complete and utter twunt she wouldn't have won, regardless of what she's done in the past.

You've failed to see my point totally. What I'm talking about is the whole, 'wow it's proved it's a person' vibe from some corners. She is a nice girl and I'm happy she won (though I agree with whoever said she was a bit like Marco) but it's the way some people go on about her personality as if it's such an achievement she has one and that for someone like THAT to be nice is amazing. I agree that what you are makes who you are but with Nadia it seems to be 'Well done for bring who you are considering what you are.'

Those other comparisons don't really fit, Brian didn't really win because he was gay but because of his harmless camp queen personality. His being gay might of helped form his personality and might of somewhat helped him win but there certainly wasn't a 'the gay has won our acceptance' feeling there is with Nadia. Jason being a prick and Nicola being weird were part of their personalities, Jade being dim had no effect on my opinion that she was a vile person and if people were to vote for Stuart for being goodlooking they would instantly accused of being shallow.

I'll repeat it again I do like her and it's lovely she won but I think the 'she's looking for acceptance as a woman and by winning she's found it.' angle that's being played is a bit of a sham because I don't think she has. As I can see it she's found acceptance as a freak, certainly by the media and that could be rather concerning for Nadia if she's gonna be part of the media game, which lets face it she's not gonna have a choice.

[si]

Lovebomb said:

His being gay might of helped form his personality and might of somewhat helped him win but there certainly wasn't a 'the gay has won our acceptance' feeling there is with Nadia.

There might not have been that feeling to you, but for me and a lot of the people I knew at the time, it was completely about the fact he was gay. He was gay and camp and honest about it and the public didn't care -- they liked his personality and the dramatic narrative his sexuality gave the show. It was extremely important to me that he won, mostly (only?) because he was gay.

It's certainly Nadia's past which spurred her on to victory and the hyperbole of transgendered acceptance is a bit much, but there's definite similarities between Nadia's winning and Brian's.

My favourite things about Nadia winning:

• Marco and Emma sobbing.
• Her initial reaction, like she'd been punched.
• The fact she didn't care about the money, what-so-ever.

[frap]

si said:

There might not have been that feeling to you, but for me and a lot of the people I knew at the time, it was completely about the fact he was gay. He was gay and camp and honest about it and the public didn't care -- they liked his personality and the dramatic narrative his sexuality gave the show. It was extremely important to me that he won, mostly (only?) because he was gay.

It's certainly Nadia's past which spurred her on to victory and the hyperbole of transgendered acceptance is a bit much, but there's definite similarities between Nadia's winning and Brian's.

My favourite things about Nadia winning:

• Marco and Emma sobbing.
• Her initial reaction, like she'd been punched.
• The fact she didn't care about the money, what-so-ever.

I must agree with Si here. I didn't vote for Brian to win because he was gay, I voted for him because he made me laugh. Like Si says, it's important when (eg.) a gay person, or a woman wins, because it sets a benchmark!

I missed this, and the repeats, which makes me VV mad. What did she do with the money?

[lovebomb]

si said:

There might not have been that feeling to you, but for me and a lot of the people I knew at the time, it was completely about the fact he was gay. He was gay and camp and honest about it and the public didn't care -- they liked his personality and the dramatic narrative his sexuality gave the show. It was extremely important to me that he won, mostly (only?) because he was gay.

Aren't you contradicting yourself. You've just said it was completely about the fact he was gay and than start talking about personality and dramatic narrative, so obviously it wasn't only because he was gay. And if it was then I don't think that's a good thing, the same way someone voting for Victor only because he was black or Shell because she was blonde wouldn't be good.

Though I still think Brian is a different case from Nadia, I do think being gay played a part but like I already mentioned in a totally different way. It wasn't like 'Wow a gay has a nice personality', if anything it was 'He's gay and camp and harmless so he must be great. They all have great personalities don't you know.'.


Anyway that's all irrelevent anyway, I don't think people are understanding what i'm saying, I'm not really on about the fact she's won or saying she doesn't deserve it or anything and just to be clear I'm also not saying Nadia was voted solely because she was a trannsexual, I was just considering the factor it played and whether the way it did in this case was a good thing or bad thing and thinking about the implications because I don't think it is all great and good and it does bring cause for concern especially beens as the whole thing is being portrayed as Nadia's quest to find acceptance as a woman. And when people say 'So what if she won because she's transsexual, I love her' strikes me as a bit narrow minded. If you love her don't you care that she hasn't been accepted as a woman, that the press are treating her like some kind of freak we have decided to take to our hearts. That they continue every week to outdo each other in finding the manliest man to say she looks like.

Believe me I'm not saying it's all terrible I think that in some ways it is quite positive and that Nadia is gonna have a great time and it is a big step forward but just not as much as some are making out and there are aspects that make me feel uncomfortable.

[si]

Lovebomb said:

Anyway that's all irrelevent anyway, I don't think people are understanding what i'm saying, I'm not really on about the fact she's won or saying she doesn't deserve it or anything and just to be clear I'm also not saying Nadia was voted solely because she was a trannsexual, I was just considering the factor it played and whether the way it did in this case was a good thing or bad thing and thinking about the implications because I don't think it is all great and good and it does bring cause for concern especially beens as the whole thing is being portrayed as Nadia's quest to find acceptance as a woman.

...and breathe.

I think people aren't understanding because it seems like you're getting very aggressive about it.

Lovebomb said:

Aren't you contradicting yourself. You've just said it was completely about the fact he was gay and than start talking about personality and dramatic narrative, so obviously it wasn't only because he was gay. And if it was then I don't think that's a good thing, the same way someone voting for Victor only because he was black or Shell because she was blonde wouldn't be good.

I'm not contradicting myself -- it was completely about his sexuality and the dramatic narrative that gave to the series. His personality was stereotypically, self consciously campy (i.e. gay). So his personality and the subsequent narrative are what made it important that he win based solely on social politics.

Does that make sense?

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you about the fact that had Nadia either a) kept her past out of the press or b) been born a woman, she would never have won. What I'm trying to say is, I don't feel there is anything wrong with the fact that I voted for Brian because I wanted to see a gay win Big Brother and I voted for Nadia to win because I wanted to see a transgendered woman win Big Brother. I don't feel this makes me particularly shallow (as, can we really accuse eachother of lacking depth when we're discussing a tabloid fodder popularity contest?), I just think that I'd like Britain to be viewed by the rest of the world as progressive.

Anyway, group hug.

Changing the subject:

I think Nadia is a much more worthy winner than Brian (mainly because Brian's activities since leaving the house have been shocking) in that I can't see a vehicle for her talents. Hopefully she won't become a media darling and will do a Cameron.

[frap]

But I voted for Bri because he made me laugh. Not because he was gay. Though, I felt it was important that he did win, for gay people, like it's important for transsexuals also because they're a minority and it (to me, personally) shows acceptance -- and I don't want to get into a fight with Lovebomb about acceptance. For ME it was acceptance, not perfect acceptance obv, but Nadia would not have won had she merely been a transsexual without personality. Her personality buoyed her forward, made people vote for her.

[lovebomb]

si said:

...and breathe.

I think people aren't understanding because it seems like you're getting very aggressive about it.

No I'm not. I'm just attempting to put my argument in a straightforward way.

I'm not contradicting myself -- it was completely about his sexuality and the dramatic narrative that gave to the series. His personality was stereotypically, self consciously campy (i.e. gay). So his personality and the subsequent narrative are what made it important that he win based solely on social politics.

Does that make sense?

Sort of but I still don't think it's similar to Nadia. And I don't think that's why the majority of people voted for him. He was the favourite from the onset and that was because that image of camp, funny, non-threatening, almost a-sexual gay man has been a popular one for about thirty years. Brian was just a noughties version of that. Anyway why Brian won is a different argument altogether.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you about the fact that had Nadia either a) kept her past out of the press or b) been born a woman, she would never have won. What I'm trying to say is, I don't feel there is anything wrong with the fact that I voted for Brian because I wanted to see a gay win Big Brother and I voted for Nadia to win because I wanted to see a transgendered woman win Big Brother. I don't feel this makes me particularly shallow (as, can we really accuse eachother of lacking depth when we're discussing a tabloid fodder popularity contest?), I just think that I'd like Britain to be viewed by the rest of the world as progressive.

That's fair enough but I still think you're missing my point, I wasn't arguing whether Nadia won or not because of what she was. The point I was making was in regards to Nadia's acceptance as a woman and the way it's somewhat being portrayed that by her winning the show she's gained it. I was just asking the question has she been accepted as a woman or accepted as a freak?

[si]

Lovebomb said:

No I'm not. I'm just attempting to put my argument in a straightforward way.

Um, by going No I'm not, you're kind of demonstrating you are. You weren't being straightforward enough until...

The point I was making was in regards to Nadia's acceptance as a woman and the way it's somewhat being portrayed that by her winning the show she's gained it. I was just asking the question has she been accepted as a woman or accepted as a freak?

Here. Now I understand.

Yes, she has arguably gained acceptence as a transgendered woman, not as a woman. How much she has been accepted remains to be seen.

[lovebomb]

si said:

Um, by going No I'm not, you're kind of demonstrating you are.

No I'm not. 'No I'm not' is not an aggressive phrase. It a phrase that simply states 'no I'm not'. Maybe it's a cultural thing but when somebody goes to me 'no I'm not' I don't step back thinking they want a fight I just think they're just telling me they're not.

Though to point the finger and go 'You're being aggressive' of course I'm going to react if I don't think I am but then to use my reaction to go 'See!!!!' strikes me as very petty. (And I'm still not being aggressive in this paragraph just a bit sterner.)

Yes, she has arguably gained acceptence as a transgendered woman, not as a woman. How much she has been accepted remains to be seen.

I don't want to get to complicated and am trying to be as clear as I can so here goes...

I wouldn't even go as far to say she's been accepted as a transgendered woman by many. I do think she has been accepted as Nadia which is a good thing but like I've already said it all seems very 'She's really nice and got such a great personality...despite the fact she's one of them'. Kinda that a transgendered woman has to prove themselves to be a person and if they do then well done and 'What an achievement, she's a nice person'. I know not everyone has that attitude but that's certainly the vibe I get from certain corners.

[lowculture.co.uk]

Oh, this arguing all so tiresome. This isn't the Popjustice messageboard, you know.

[lovebomb]

lowculture.co.uk said:

Oh, this arguing all so tiresome.

Tiresome? Arguing? What is this. Big Brother 4?

[moondial]

lowculture.co.uk said:

Oh, this arguing all so tiresome. This isn't the Popjustice messageboard, you know.

I'VE JUST SEEN THE TITLE OF GIRLS ALOUD'S NEW TUNE AND THINK IT WILL BE AT NUMBER 1 FOR NINE WEEKS!!!!

[Storm]

I sort of agree with Lovebom to a certain extent.

Anyone with a heart couldn't have been failed to have been touched at Nadia's reaction when she won. However, I think she's gonna be quite hurt when, despite the fact that she won, she sees the press she has gotten etc. She is still seen as an oddity - as some curious, strange being that people are fascinated by. It's nice that people have overlooked the fact that she's a transsexual and voted for her. However, i can't help thinking it's for the wrong reasons. She wanted to be accepted as a woman. But if she hadn't have been born a man, she'd never have won. She may have been accepted as a transsexual, and as a person. But she hasn't been accepted as a woman, for a long shot. I feel a bit sad for her, as she will now forever be known as a woman that used to be a man, effectively ending any chances she ever had of just being a normal woman.

As for Brian, i'm nto sure that was a positive thing either. He won mainly cos he was funny, yes. But I thik the fact that he was asexual, and 'harmless' was a huge part of it. Someone like Josh for example still would never win, as he's too sexually threatening for your typical British household. Have you noticed that the majority of gay men on TV are camp and asexual? Gay people are accepted, especially by the media, if tehy're camp, witty, or can do interior design, or give fashion advice. Of course Brian winning was a step forward - just not as hugely as every one thought it was.